Curse

Skyy High · Feb 22, 2010, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

I assume that by "extreme solo farming" you mean speed clears of elite areas and runs of difficult dungeons. I can sympathize with the desire to stop that activity. However, I am concerned about the possible impact on other farms, since I would prefer that the baby not be thrown out with the bath water.

So, what, all those farms you listed can only be done with SF? No one solo-farmed before SF? Seems to me that nearly 2 years of SF has just gone and spoiled you to how easy solo farming should be. Hitting those three keys on recharge and being free to solo nearly every area in the game is not exactly rocket science, and there is something to be said for making solo-farming require at least a modicum of skill again.

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I am quite puzzled at the insistence that OF confers some ungodly op invulnerability that ranks right up there with SF or 600/Smite. If it's so great, then why do I not see a single speed clear or dungeon running build using it on PvX?

Er, because SF does everything it does, and more? Before there was SF, though, OF tanks were meta, and once SF is gone it's a foregone conclusion that they'd come back. Pre-emptive strike ftw.

QueenofDeath · Feb 22, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

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Before there was SF, though, OF tanks were meta, and once SF is gone it's a foregone conclusion that they'd come back. Pre-emptive strike ftw.

Perhaps you didn't read but it was said there will be others of the overpowered skills that will be hit also not just SF and 600 smite. Prepare for OF tanks to feel the pain as well.

)

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Feb 22, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Everyone here is a dog barking up a tree (not the wrong tree), but the tree is a Giant Sequoia and at the top is ANet and the TK.

One of the main problems with the TK people chosen, is that they are all mostly long time players and in some cases, players with insides, or friends of friends. Sure they have all played this game for a long time and know the inner workings, but that is one of the flaws. They have groups, Guilds and Alliances, they have lots of in game wealth, they have all skills unlocked, they have all the campaigns, heroes and access to many things that others (most average players) do not have.

They can't step back and see the game from the perspective of new players, semi-active players or even other players from other games. I can only imagine how difficult this game is for new players who bought Guild Wars Platinum. Working through EOTN with mainly only Prophecies skills and game progression? They cant run most builds people take for granted. They won't be doing speed clears for sure. How about finding some people who don't have everything in this game already, with a little different perspective to help on TK.

I only see two ways the TK player testing can work, server wise. They have their own server, build and copies of characters (or pre-mades), or they have the same server as us, just with an advanced build, using their own characters. In the latter case, I can only see lots of chances at abuse and gain (for the TK) by exploiting skill changes before reporting bugs and working out builds weeks before others get a chance.

In the former case, I see no reason why a select TK needs to be there. If the testing is being done on a separate sever with separate characters (or copies), there is absolutely no reason why ANet can not go all the way like other MMOs and make a test server that we can all log into and test changes. Not only would they get more feedback, they would get more testing done and a wider variety of feedback and have it all done faster.

reaper with no name · Feb 22, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

That would also mean a lot more input to sift through, and a lot of that would be from people who cannot be trusted, either because they're idiots or because they have an ulterior motive (I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the stuff in this update may be the result of biases people didn't even realize they had; I mean, really, buffing Warriors and Ritualists when neither needs it at all and classes like Rangers and Mesmers have needed buffs for years).

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Feb 22, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That would also mean a lot more input to sift through, and a lot of that would be from people who cannot be trusted, either because they're idiots or because they have an ulterior motive (I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the stuff in this update may be the result of biases people didn't even realize they had; I mean, really, buffing Warriors and Ritualists when neither needs it at all and classes like Rangers and Mesmers have needed buffs for years).

The more testers you have, the less chance there is of anomalies, because the majority of the player base is average.

With the small TK base we have, who are mostly, as I stated, long term players with ties to select guilds, alliances, and even Anet staff, there is much more chance of issues and ulterior motives, whether it is to protect in-game wealth, gold color on a cape, or their favorite class.

Just look at the statements most have made in regards to mesmers.

Then with farming skills, many acknowledged TK testers are very vocally anti-SF and farming. How is that fair to a large player base that enjoys farming and has been allowed to do so freely for the better part of 5 years? There are points were it is too much, I agree, but the best fixes for the speedclears is not nerfing skills. There are lockout timers, consumables can be nerfed, rewards can be nerfed, and they could easily add known counter skills to a few key monsters to stop it all. Dungeons could easily have a kill counter added to require complete playing, or even make door keys random monster drops, which would fix 99% of the issues without a single skill, playstyle or build being nerfed.

If you look at current MMOs, they have gone away from the marathon dungeons to smaller (4-5-6 man) and shorter (1 hour) high end areas, because people can't get huge groups together Probably shouldn't mention that most MMOs have also gone to better grouping systems as well as adding in the ability to bring new players into an instance when others drop out.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 22, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

Everyone here is a dog barking up a tree (not the wrong tree), but the tree is a Giant Sequoia and at the top is ANet and the TK.

One of the main problems with the TK people chosen, is that they are all mostly long time players and in some cases, players with insides, or friends of friends. Sure they have all played this game for a long time and know the inner workings, but that is one of the flaws. They have groups, Guilds and Alliances, they have lots of in game wealth, they have all skills unlocked, they have all the campaigns, heroes and access to many things that others (most average players) do not have.

Probably not. It -does- take a long time to do everything, and I somehow doubt that all these are players who've been playing from Day one.

Even so, you don't think they'd hand everything necessary over to them on the test server?

Also, the fundamental principles of GW are that wealth is reletive. Skins do nothing for your performance, and someone with the very basic equipment can be just as good as a veteran. That's changed somewhat, as wealth has more dominion over things like cons, but the basics are there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

They can't step back and see the game from the perspective of new players, semi-active players or even other players from other games. I can only imagine how difficult this game is for new players who bought Guild Wars Platinum. Working through EOTN with mainly only Prophecies skills and game progression? They cant run most builds people take for granted. They won't be doing speed clears for sure. How about finding some people who don't have everything in this game already, with a little different perspective to help on TK.

Hey, it's a good business deal on the part of Anet. They get Platinum, eventually get frustrated that they don't have all the skills others do, and then buy the other campaigns. It's not them being bias, it's them making money :P I can assure you that if I could have all the skills and professions of Factions without buying it, I certainly wouldn't buy factions.

Even disregarding that, there is the noob factor. We were all noobs at once, but you don't elect a noob to have a say in what GW is about, and the direction it should take. Also, I highly doubt that the TK does anything more then test out the skills Anet sends at them for their feedback on possible bugs, synergy issues, ect. They certainly don't have a say in the final word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

I only see two ways the TK player testing can work, server wise. They have their own server, build and copies of characters (or pre-mades), or they have the same server as us, just with an advanced build, using their own characters. In the latter case, I can only see lots of chances at abuse and gain (for the TK) by exploiting skill changes before reporting bugs and working out builds weeks before others get a chance.

It's the same game, definitely. Obviously the versions of the intended skills to change are different, and probably with the exception that everyone on the test krewe can go to any outpost, have all skills, ect.

It certainly doesn't take a huge abundance of wealth to accomplish that. Just time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

In the former case, I see no reason why a select TK needs to be there. If the testing is being done on a separate sever with separate characters (or copies), there is absolutely no reason why ANet can not go all the way like other MMOs and make a test server that we can all log into and test changes. Not only would they get more feedback, they would get more testing done and a wider variety of feedback and have it all done faster.

They don't do that for various reasons. more work sifting through people's feedback who have no clue what they're talking about mostly, I'm sure. I don't know how much of Anet's resources that would take to set up either. Not to mention that if we all could see what the skill balancers are working on, we'd all know how slow they work :P

Phaern Majes · Feb 22, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

If you look at current MMOs, they have gone away from the marathon dungeons to smaller (4-5-6 man) and shorter (1 hour) high end areas, because people can't get huge groups together Probably shouldn't mention that most MMOs have also gone to better grouping systems as well as adding in the ability to bring new players into an instance when others drop out.

You have to keep in mind that Anet doesn't have much of a cash flow coming in anymore. Granted just adding a skill or two to a couple mobs would be a "cheap" fix, adding functionality to allow for new players to be brought in mid-instance would probably be a nasty mess of code to untangle before they could even consider getting that to work. And I doubt they have the man-power devoted to GW1 for that.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, to see improvements for GW2 when it comes to grouping and I'm hoping they've learned some hard lessons from GW1 about skill balancing.

esthetic · Feb 22, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I got an idea.... ANet should list a few things for change, all of the GW community get to vote on it in game, and the thing getting the most votes should be implemented. The idea that some of the GW elite, or snobs as I see them, know better what changes in game enhance the game experience for us regular folk is just silly.

TK should be just doing the testing and no influence on what changes are made. By soliciting advice or opinions of the TK, ANet is NOT getting an accurate pulse of the entire GW community.

I would take exchange skill balance changes over the past two years for a fixed XTH system. Of course I too can be seen as biased as I have multiple accounts, but IMO spending the resources to fix XTH would have been a far better allocation of the limited resources ANet has to work with.

The Josip · Feb 22, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

A time where mesmers were slightly superior to other classes? Have you already forgotten about cryway? There, you wanted your moment of superiority, you got it.

You mean PvE skill that everyone could spam just as well as mesmers (if not better) because the skill wasn't linked to primary attribute like some other (paragon one for instance)? A skill with 1/4 cast time which made mesmer primary attribute and profession specialty useless?

Yea, moment of superiority.

Come on Arkantos, you can do better.

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I think it's obvious that ANet doesn't want insanely overpowered skills in PvE right now, which is exactly why they didn't buff mesmers in this update.

Oh I see. They didn't want to buff mesmer because it would become insanely overpowered. Discussion with you is pointless, you're completely out of touch with reality.

You do realize they didnt get buffed BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE? It's that simple.

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Yes, they've had years to do it, and they certainly should have done it sooner, but now it seems like they want a somewhat balanced PvE game. Seeing as that's what they want, it's going to take longer to balance professions.

Aha, yea. You can do better skill balancing in 1 afternoon. If they employed Upier for 8 hours and told him that is the deadline, he would come up with a better balance than entire Test Krewe and ANet gw1 staff in 6 months.

As I said, you're out of touch with reality.

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Anet should have buffed them long ago, but now they actually want to put time and thought into skill updates as opposed to 'here you go guys, indefinite invincibility and huge damage skills!'.

Come on Arkantos, it's not like you care if mesmers get buffed in year 2020. You will be playing with your Rt and Necro heroes. Sure, YOU can wait. We MESMERS can't.

So let's switch mesmers with some OP class and then that other class can exercise eternal patience.

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There's a difference between years of trying to make mesmers good, and years of ANet not giving a shit. When you don't give a shit, you don't work on it, so that whole argument is pretty moot.

So last several years they worked on making mesmers good, and the result is they are still crap as always and nothing changed (as a matter of fact, since beginning of GW mesmers got countless nerfs, if anything they are much worse overall).

Arkantos, you're really out of touch with reality. Try working on a project in real life for several years without results, and see what your investors will think of that. But here in GW, you can work several years on something without results, and people will still say it's all fine.

Gill Halendt · Feb 22, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOD_EaSyKiLL

There are points were it is too much, I agree, but the best fixes for the speedclears is not nerfing skills. There are lockout timers, consumables can be nerfed, rewards can be nerfed, and they could easily add known counter skills to a few key monsters to stop it all. Dungeons could easily have a kill counter added to require complete playing, or even make door keys random monster drops, which would fix 99% of the issues without a single skill, playstyle or build being nerfed.

No, please, not again.

This "solution" will influence people who DON'T play just for farming - think of the UW and the anti-farm measures that made it bloody hard to complete for regular groups, while farming still runs rampant - while also requiring much more effort than nerfing a blatantly abusable combination.

I don't see how turning the game upside down just to leave farming skills untouched is fair toward those who don't farm night and day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You do realize they didnt get buffed BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE? It's that simple.

Ah, hilarious. Conspiracy!

You know, TEST Krewe just... test proposed changes?

The decision of which skill/combination/profession to work on comes from ANet. TK test solutions and suggest eventual changes. They don't go out and pick any random skill they want buffed or nerfed out of the blue.

Talk about being out of touch with reality...

BrettM · Feb 22, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

So, what, all those farms you listed can only be done with SF? No one solo-farmed before SF? Seems to me that nearly 2 years of SF has just gone and spoiled you

Excuse me? Please go back and reread my post. I was talking about farms using OF, not SF. I have never played a sin and have never used SF at any time for anything, so I don't think it has spoiled me. I haven't even been playing for two full years yet. I farm with my earth ele, and I don't think you're going to be able to point me to an ele build for doing those farms that doesn't require OF, so I will likely be forced to cross them off my list (depending on the exact changes that are made). There is nothing wrong with any of the farming I've been doing, and I resent being turned into collateral damage of somebody's vendetta against UWSC.

And where did I imply that no one solo farmed before SF (or OF or any other skill)? I spoke of some very specific farms, not solo farming in general. I have other solo farms that use different builds, none of which require OF or any other skill on the farmaggedon hit list. But don't try to tell me I should be content with just doing those and be happy with losing access to farms that give me drops the others do not.

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Er, because SF does everything it does, and more? Before there was SF, though, OF tanks were meta, and once SF is gone it's a foregone conclusion that they'd come back. Pre-emptive strike ftw.

So what? Was anyone complaining about speed clears when OF tanks were meta? Is it even possible to do a 10-minute (or even 30-minute) UW clear with an OF tank? If not, then who gives a fig if OF tanks come back? Why launch a preemptive strike against a non threat, taking out perfectly legitimate farms at the same time?

Lanier · Feb 22, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Even disregarding that, there is the noob factor. We were all noobs at once, but you don't elect a noob to have a say in what GW is about, and the direction it should take. Also, I highly doubt that the TK does anything more then test out the skills Anet sends at them for their feedback on possible bugs, synergy issues, ect. They certainly don't have a say in the final word.

I dont think he was suggesting having noobs on the test krewe. I think he was suggesting putting a mix of both hard-core and casual, experienced players on the TK.

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BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE?

uh... do you know that for sure? that is a pretty bold statement to make unless you actually know what professions they play.

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We MESMERS can't.

Speak for yourself. Im patient enough to wait around for a mesmer update in the future rather than complaining about how one wasnt done in the february update.

@ Josip: I feel as though you do not enjoy the mesmer style of gameplay, one that is inherently going to be weaker at PvE than other professions because of the nature of disruption. Unless Anet does something to reward disruption w/ damage, I feel as though there is no way to make mesmers more efficient in PvE without changing them into a copy of a class we already have. May I suggest you choose another profession to play?

toocooltang · Feb 22, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

These so called "elite" players you speak of that want SF nerfed for their own selfish reasons, that seems like someone that is just grabbing at straws really.

These players are elite because they have been around for a long time, gone through multiple meta changes, AND most importantly understand the fundamentals of guildwars. Many new players, did ursan, then switched to SF. Which allowed them to ignore the majority of the game and understand effective combonations of offense and defense, watching the field and other such things you learn from team play. What will happen, people will either adapt, or quit. That simple, you either start trying new stuff, figuring out how to play or you just quit because its to hard.

Tenebrae · Feb 22, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You do realize they didnt get buffed BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE? It's that simple.

Just for lols , check Regina Buenaobra , guru profile "Me/" . It doesnt matter if its true but at least is a good joke.

FoxBat · Feb 23, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

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Originally Posted by Lanier

uh... do you know that for sure? that is a pretty bold statement to make unless you actually know what professions they play.

Change it to "no-one plays mesmer in pve" and it's not far from the truth.

Giga_Gaia · Feb 23, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

First off Arkantos, thank you for the reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Again, mesmers don't absolutely suck in PvE. They're not the best for PvE, but that doesn't mean they're complete shit. The priories for PvE are being dealt with in this update (aka SF), they revamped a profession, and they revamped 3 attribute lines to be at least decent and different. For mesmers to be considered viable and good to the community, they need a huge revamp. If they got that revamp, I highly doubt they would have reworked ritualists and the other few attribute lines, or they would have and taken longer. Instead of tackling a huge task, they tackled minor ones in more quantity. In the stale state of PvE, I'd rather see some attribute lines from multiple professions reworked rather than just one profession. I can understand why you're angry, but understand that fixing multiple smaller problems > fixing one big problem for this update.

Then from what the notes released so far of this update, it's pretty much safe to assume that either:

1) the update will NOT be coming out bi-monthly as they originally planned/promised/stated, but that every update from now on will take just as long (6 months) or even longer. Because hey, if reworking 4 attribute lines and a few other skills took this long, then the mesmer update (which i can assume from your statement will be looked at eventually) would probably take ages right?

2) they will NEVER look at the mesmer ever again, simply because of the massive amount of work it would take. What i don't understand with this point is, there are already so many threads and ideas floating around just on guru, on viable ways to buff the mesmer that doesn't (or shouldn't) require nearly as much time as you guys think.

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Mesmers can't steamroll through elite areas, which is how it should be. Now, it's not as easy as just buffing mesmer skills and moving along. If you just give mesmers some overpowered skills then they're going to be superior to other professions, which is exactly what you don't want. You need to give it a lot of thought and testing to pull it off without screwing shit up. That's why they didn't rework mesmers this update, they didn't have the time.

Man, the mesmer suggestions have already been stated many, many, many, many, many MANY times:

-Shorten the recharge on their useful skills
-Un-nerf VOR
-Un-nerf COP
-give the class that's supposed to be about energy control some actual energy management
-among many other suggestions which i'm sure you guys must be aware of

And that's using common sense. Honestly, pretty much any of these suggestions would be enough to make most of us mesmer whiners happy. It's not rocket science and should not take nearly as much effort as you guys make think.

Del · Feb 23, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

@ Josip: I feel as though you do not enjoy the mesmer style of gameplay, one that is inherently going to be weaker at PvE than other professions because of the nature of disruption. Unless Anet does something to reward disruption w/ damage, I feel as though there is no way to make mesmers more efficient in PvE without changing them into a copy of a class we already have. May I suggest you choose another profession to play?

Quoted for truth.

VoR split and CoP revert are reasonable, however, asking for a class that YOU chose to play be overhauled because you don't like how it works in pve is pretty asinine.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 12:22 AM // 00:22

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Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

-Un-nerf VOR

Or they could just split it and rework the PvE-version only, since the nerf was needed because of a strictly PvP issue.

Splits are for nerf required by one format that would also break it in the other, and this is the case with VoR, which I think is hardly used anymore as it used to.

If anything, mildly toning it down (a-la-SoS, which is being slightly altered without facing a "nerf") could do.

The Josip · Feb 23, 2010, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

@ Josip: I feel as though you do not enjoy the mesmer style of gameplay, one that is inherently going to be weaker at PvE than other professions

The only reason why I do play mesmer is because I enjoy mesmer style of gameplay. What I dont enjoy is when people come and say that mesmer should suck, that mesmer buff should compete with end of the world in which comes later, and that 'nothing can be done'.

There is no such thing as inherently weaker. It's a matter of skill balance.

In PvP, enemies have X energy pool. In PvE, enemies have 3X. What does that mean? That energy drain skills should for start drain at least 3X as much energy in PvE. It doesnt mean it would make skills good, I don't know, but I'm trying to show you.

I'll give you more examples:

Blackout - blackouts PvE foe for 50 seconds. Is this inherently weaker? No, the skill has same function, only it is buffed. This is extreme example of course, and I'm trying to show that Mesmer class IS NOT inherently weaker, it's a matter of skill balance.

Another example: Diversion. Make it actually WORK on foes in PvE. Perhaps some of you don't know, but this skill doesn't work on some bosses etc... great way to artificially nerf mesmer in PvE instead of buff.

Shame - another nice example of mesmer shutdown skill... and completely useless in PvE because of 30seconds recharge (im excluding AP here on purpose). Give this skill 10 seconds recharge and you'll see how it is not inherently weaker.

Backfire - recharge and energy cost just dont fit PvE. Now, imagine this skill: recharge 5 seconds, dmg 100, cost 5 energy, duration 10. Inherently weaker? No, it's just a matter of skill balance. In PvE foes die fast, there are no pressure battles there. Skill balance needs to reflect on that. Seen Asuran Scan? Now imagine if that skill had 30sec recharge. Exactly.

Shared Burden - "target foe and nearby foes move 20% slower for each foe affected by this skill; max 90% speed reduction". There you go, a skill that isn't crap. Cast Shared Burden on a mobbed group, and another party member can nuke away.

Inherently weaker is another phrase for lack of creativity and will to do proper balance.

ps: Above are just examples so don't come with "see what you did, made this skill OP". Don't care.

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Speak for yourself. Im patient enough to wait around for a mesmer update in the future rather than complaining about how one wasnt done in the february update.

Im speaking for other giants who are not satisfied with little things, or with lack of fairness. You want to wait 20 years, sure go ahead. You satisfied with how things are, no problem. I don't write my posts for lethargic apathetic people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Just for lols , check Regina Buenaobra , guru profile "Me/" . It doesnt matter if its true but at least is a good joke.

Which proves my point. Even community manager needs to put Me in profile to show how "ANet is with mesmers, dont fear that you're neglected". Heck even community manager knows mesmers are crap.

Besides, I don't know much about Regina, but come on, what are you saying, Gaile knew how rangers work and was skilled enough to be able to give feedback regarding skill update? A community manager is feel-good person not know-how person.

Arkantos · Feb 23, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You mean PvE skill that everyone could spam just as well as mesmers (if not better) because the skill wasn't linked to primary attribute like some other (paragon one for instance)? A skill with 1/4 cast time which made mesmer primary attribute and profession specialty useless?

Yea, moment of superiority.

Come on Arkantos, you can do better.

Oh I see. They didn't want to buff mesmer because it would become insanely overpowered. Discussion with you is pointless, you're completely out of touch with reality.

You do realize they didnt get buffed BECAUSE NO TEST KREWE MEMBER PLAYS MESMER in PvE? It's that simple.

Aha, yea. You can do better skill balancing in 1 afternoon. If they employed Upier for 8 hours and told him that is the deadline, he would come up with a better balance than entire Test Krewe and ANet gw1 staff in 6 months.

As I said, you're out of touch with reality.

Come on Arkantos, it's not like you care if mesmers get buffed in year 2020. You will be playing with your Rt and Necro heroes. Sure, YOU can wait. We MESMERS can't.

So let's switch mesmers with some OP class and then that other class can exercise eternal patience.

So last several years they worked on making mesmers good, and the result is they are still crap as always and nothing changed (as a matter of fact, since beginning of GW mesmers got countless nerfs, if anything they are much worse overall).

Arkantos, you're really out of touch with reality. Try working on a project in real life for several years without results, and see what your investors will think of that. But here in GW, you can work several years on something without results, and people will still say it's all fine.

You're completely missing the point. What I'm trying to say is there was a point when mesmers could completely roll elite areas. Yeah, other classes could do it too, but so could mesmers, which is what you want.

Apparently your reading comprehension level is quite low. If you try and balance something quickly, you're either going to make them completely overpowered or make them still suck because of the lack of thought and testing put into it. And how exactly do you know that no test krewe member plays mesmer? Do you know every single player in the test krewe? Do you stalk them on the internet to find out what they do? Yeah, thought so. If you want to have a discussion, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

If balancing is so easy, then take an afternoon to rework the mesmer class making it better in PvE without breaking it. I'll post it on the test krewe forums for the devs to see. No offense to upier, but if you think that he can balance the game better than ANet/about 200 players, then you're pretty dumb. Not trying to be rude, but I just can't think of any other way to put it.

And yeah, sure. Make warriors as viable as mesmers are now, I'll still continue to steamroll through PvE while alt tabbed into guru.

ANet have been trying to make mesmers good in PvE for the last several years? Who said that? Again, it seems that you have poor reading comprehension. It's obvious that ANet hasn't really given a shit about mesmers in PvE, unless you're completely oblivious.

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1) the update will NOT be coming out bi-monthly as they originally planned/promised/stated, but that every update from now on will take just as long (6 months) or even longer. Because hey, if reworking 4 attribute lines and a few other skills took this long, then the mesmer update (which i can assume from your statement will be looked at eventually) would probably take ages right?

2) they will NEVER look at the mesmer ever again, simply because of the massive amount of work it would take. What i don't understand with this point is, there are already so many threads and ideas floating around just on guru, on viable ways to buff the mesmer that doesn't (or shouldn't) require nearly as much time as you guys think.

If I remember correctly, Regina has a page on wiki talking about how ANet are trying to make mesmers better for PvE. Who's to say ANet hasn't been looking at mesmers? Also, once the test krewe is settled in I'm sure the updates will take much less time. Remember, this is the first time ANet's done something like this, so it's obviously going to (further) push back the balance. Sure, they took they're time, but I'd rather wait a few months where ANet is getting direct feedback from players and much more testing rather than a few weeks of ANet choosing skills and throwing shit at a dart board.

Quote:

-Shorten the recharge on their useful skills
-Un-nerf VOR
-Un-nerf COP
-give the class that's supposed to be about energy control some actual energy management
-among many other suggestions which i'm sure you guys must be aware of

And that's using common sense. Honestly, pretty much any of these suggestions would be enough to make most of us mesmer whiners happy. It's not rocket science and should not take nearly as much effort as you guys make think.

Shortening recharges is really more of a bandaid fix that takes no thought at all. Mesmer skills don't need shorter recharges, they need to be reworked for PvE. Mesmers can do damage, shut down, and interrupt. 2 out of those 3 are useless in PvE. Cutting the recharge on skills is still going to leave the majority of mesmer skills useless. Reverting VoR would be good, but CoP was nerfed in PvE for a reason. And mesmer energy management is fine unless you press 1257261836589 in the matter of 10 seconds.

So really, what do you want? Bandaid fixes like shortening recharges so the only decent mesmer skills are more spammable while the rest are still bad, or ANet actually messing around with all their skills so mesmers as a profession can be better?